Tuesday, April 24, 2012

What I Think About India/Indians

It's important to understand that each of my blog posts takes about 2 hours to write. That leaves 22 hours in my day of thoughts, ideas, activities that I don't write about. Some are too mundane and others I'm not ready to post about. So it only stands to reason it could be very difficult to discern how I feel about India and Indians base on how little I actually write about here.

Most importantly. I don't hate India. I do hate the circumstances I'm forced to see here daily. I've never been able to deal with human or animal suffering AT ALL. I'm much too emotional for it. So even seeing people in this city mistreat each other bothers me immensely. My daddy's best friend, Nirungen, that I've mentioned before always just told me things like "if you get in any trouble over there, go to our house or call us" and "India's a hard place to live." Those don't really explain to a person what they may have to deal with when getting here. It's easy to adjust to how rough concrete floors are on your bones and find ways to deal with the temperature. But seeing badly beaten dogs, excessively handicapped people begging and politicians screw over the poor (in the news) by doing things like lowering the poverty level so they don't have to help them are pure torture for me. I have cried more in one year in India than I had in my entire 30+ years before coming here.

I don't hate Indians. I honestly don't feel that they are any different than any other person in the world. That doesn't mean the culture isn't different, I'm talking only in terms of people, their thoughts, their emotions, their feelings, ideas, etc. You don't have to like it, but you're just like the westerners that the "chest thumping, prideful" Indians seem to have so much against. That's right. Just like Bollywood doesn't portray the real India, Hollywood doesn't portray the real America, Nollywood doesn't portray the real Nigeria, etc. etc. etc. TV lies. How else do you think it would make life so dramatic when every day you experience a lot of boring and mundane moments?

What I do think is that you're not given enough information to realize you're your own worst enemy sometimes. In many western countries, children are taught from the time they're very tiny about hygiene. Hygiene isn't just about how you wipe your ass. It's about realizing that every person has bacteria and germs inside their body and on their skin. While this bacteria is good for you in most cases, it is not always good for everyone else. So when you aren't taught about things like frequent hand washing then you can transfer those germs and bacteria to other people.

When they enter another person's body, they can make them very sick because they're foreign to the other person. So babies, who take years to build up immunity even if they have immunizations and are breast fed, get these germs and get sick. It happens to adults too. Most of my illnesses here can be explained exactly the same way. I am like a baby in this country and the germs and bacteria here are foreign to me. So when you touch a wall in a public place with unwashed hands and then I touch it, I pick up your germs and bacteria. If I then touch my face they will enter my body and could make me sick. It doesn't mean you're dirty individually, it means I don't have the immunities to tolerate them.

It's not just hygiene. I honestly believed before coming here that Indians were more caring toward each other. I got that impression from Nirungen and his family and other Indians I grew up around, worked with and from the things hubby told me. After coming here I've realized how wrong I was. Nirungen did care about my family so the bonds between all of us were strong. I also had developed close friendships with coworkers as well. Hubby and I's relationship is obvious. But after coming here, I see that what really goes on between Indians who are not close friends/family is much more cordial and comes from a sense of duty and obligation, not care and concern.

This is NO DIFFERENT from what goes on in the west. You do it because it's expected and because you don't want to hurt someone by saying no. "No" isn't considered as bad in the west so we may say the actual more, but Indians say "no" in different ways and just as often. Want a good example? My dad has asked me to take him to the doctor on my birthday while I'm home. Do I want to? Hell no, he should be taking me to dinner and getting me a gift (*cheeky grin*) but will I? Yes. Because he's my dad and no matter how often we have trouble getting along, it's my place to take him. Of course, like a good daughter I will insist on a nice breakfast on the way. (*really big, snarky grin*) And if you read that right, you'll also realize I'm indicating I don't have a close, loving relationship with my dad. He has mental health problems that make him very mean and difficult to be around. He doesn't let you form close bonds with him for long periods of time.

Just like I can tell you that, I know for a fact not all Indians love their dads unconditionally and have great relationships with them. I've seen many examples with my own two eyes and heard of many more. So yep, just like Indians, Americans can and do respect their elders and care for them in their old age out of respect and obligation and, quite often, love. I know a lot of Indians like to say we don't because we put them in nursing homes but that is because you don't understand American culture. A lot of elderly like retirement communities and nursing homes because they get to spend time with other people their age daily, have fun events planned for them daily and if they need medical assistance it is there in seconds, not the hours it could take for a family member to get them to a doctor. When they don't want to be there, it is almost always because they need medical care we are not capable of adequately providing. I don't think Indians realize just how much American's pay for their elderly to be in these facilities so they can be well taken care of. No one pays that much money for someone they don't care about at all.

Hell, I don't even hate Amritsar. Yes, there are times I call it hell to be living here but that is based off of my circumstances and the things I have to deal with. What I do hate is how people here treat it like a trash dumpster and don't see anything wrong with that. I'm not just talking about the trash either. If this is truly a holy city, then why in the hell are people not more proud of it? Unlike the rest of India, buildings aren't renovated. Historical places are not preserved (except for a few).

This city is in a bad state of decay and it's only been recently that people have started stepping up and trying to make it better.Alpha One has clean initiatives where they go out and try to make neighborhoods better. The SPCA (which btw if she reads my blog - I LOVE the status updates you put on the FB page) is making strides toward the better treatment of animals. My favorite thing that's happening right now is that the government of India has stepped in and sent officials to raid all the local restaurants. They've shut down far too many of them for health code violations but every time they do it makes the newspaper. This is going a long way towards teaching Amritsari's the importance of health and safety standards. It's keeping them from ignoring them and protecting countless unsuspecting citizens and foreigners from contracting serious ailments.

That leads me to my next point. Amritsari's, and possibly other Indians, are far too trusting of people with titles. You go to a restaurant and you assume the chef/staff are following laws about food prep. In the US, we don't give them that much trust and they are graded and inspected frequently. You go to a doctor, let him hand you unmarked pills and you take them just like he said. No questions about what they are or how they could affect your body and your future health. This is a man who holds your life in his hands and you let him....blindly. Doctors make mistakes and what if he gave you something that killed you? What if he wasn't around and you had to see another doctor and that doctor gave you medicines that didn't mix with what the first doctor gave you? Little things like that are life threatening to everyone. You should never give anyone so much control over your life. It's YOUR life, they won't respect it as much as you do.

This level of trust extends to just about anyone with a title. In the US, we have a system of accountability to protect us but there is nothing like that here. No one is usually held accountable for their mistakes in any way. Even if they are, it could take years and millions to get the police or courts to dissolve the dispute. I think Indians are so trusting because they believe that they are more connected and generally caring toward each other. But I urge you, the pride and duty you feel toward your countrymen is the same as in other countries and very few trust people as easily as Indians do. You can still have pride in your country and protect yourself and your family from potential danger.

Do I hate my Indian in-laws? Hell no. Yes, they get on my nerves and there's some of them I just don't like. But, if they need me for something I'm here. I still feel a sense of duty toward them even if I can't respect a few of them (*cough* Uncle ji and Chachi *cough*). I wouldn't sit idly by and watch them suffer or struggle. I don't do things to hurt them or make them feel bad, though that is what they've done to me. A few other family members are a little scary but I still sit with them, talk to them on the phone, etc. And there are few members of this family I absolutely love. I'm not heartless you see. I'm just allergic to bullshit no matter who it comes from.

80 comments:

  1. So well written, and the whole family things, I know many Indians that do find the western way wierd, and some that call us uncarring, what they do not realise however is that it all boils down to CULTURE. Kids in Europe are taught the value of money early, to work to pay for college in some countries where it isn't cheap, as they grow up parents put more financial responsibilities on their kids, not because they are mean, but because many societies in the west (and yes don't put the entire Western world in the same basket) are societies that want independant people who can take initiatives, the school system is also widely different from the Indian one, it is more interested in HOW the child came to the result rather than the result itself, not that the result doesn't matter. It is a system that promotes questionning, self thinking and independance.

    When you grew up a whole life making your own choices you want to continue doing so in retirement and among like minded people. Like you said a vast majority of senior citizens WANT to be put in a retirment home or senior citizen society, simply because they do understant that a generation gap exist and that they'll feel much more intellectually stimulated among people who were born in the same decades as them, they shared an eara, they went through the great depression, they know WW2 and what it means in their life, they can relate together, they also have entertainement that suits them, and medical care at hand should they need it. They very well understand that their kids or grand kids grew in a different world, and that it's not fair to ask them to dress concervative and act a certain way around them, in a retirement home they know they won't be forced to watch TV their kids enjoy but they don't, they also feel better knowing that while they enjoy bridge playing and soft gym exercise their kids don't feel bad going on a mountain hike their parents could not enjoy.

    I heard too many times right wing parties in India blaming the individualistic nature of the west saying it is evil and corrupts India. But how evil is it for both a senior citizen and their son to realise they grew up in different world and BOTH wanting to live a life more independently? DH who is Indian was actually totally amazed at how senior citizens in Switzerland are, active, still doing their shopping alone, meeting with peers in cafes, going to age appropriae activity level excursion, and just enjoying their twilight years to the fullest while in his family and most of the senior citizens he encountered in Indian he only heard "I am old now I can't do this" or "I just turn 60 I need to make arrangement to go live with my son" or "I am 60 I am old and I have diabetes, I can't travel anymore"
    He especailly was in awe at my maternal grand ma who not only suffered a major pancreas infections 7 years ago but also had a massive cancerous tumor on one of her kidney and has mild heart problems, she is 82 a widow and still goes on trips across the country, go to the cafe to gossip with her friends everyday, go to senior gym, go on weelky walks inthe park and keep her house clean.
    My paternal grand ma he didn't meet used to go skiing still in her 60's but had to stop after she broke her leg, she is a widow too, still tend her garden, go swimming a mile every day in the summer, go out with friends, play cards, travel across the country, at age 82.

    I realise this is a long comment but yeah I feel strongly about it

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  2.  Eek. Would this post exist if you really fit in india? Probably not.



    It's obvious that india is not to your standards. I don't like many of things here either. But I don't lie about it.



    I say it like it is: I hate india as much as I love it.



    ***I honestly don't feel that they are any different than any other person in the world.***



    That's not true. I've been places. I've friends of other races. There's a
    deep rooted malaise of hostility(or even more) which comes natural to
    some races. Some of the sh!t I've seen in the west, I can't even get my
    mind to explain it. For eg: During my two week stay in israel, a family
    was murdered in the opposite building. The family were immigrant jews
    from russia. Their teenage son got angry because the father didn't buy
    him a car. He locked them in the house and chopped them all, parents,
    siblings etc. In fact, he "played" with them while he was doing it. All because the father didn't buy him a car!!!



    In fact, I see such crazy things a little too many times in the west.
    The insensitivity towards violence. But to compare this sh!t with india,
    that's delusional. It's like comparing an inconsiderate(india) society
    with a dog eat dog world(west).

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  3.  There have been several report in the paper over the years of teenegers in India killing relatives because they refuesed to buy a cell phone or other fancy gadgets, no country is immune to Sh!t...just saying.
    And what about killing the bride bcause she didn't bring enough dowry...this happens...in INDIA.
    So these "crazy little things" happen everywhere.

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  4. Nice post, Kristy! Curious to know, just for fun, what you think would go through the minds of each household member if they sat down at a computer and read your blog, first post to last? (for this exercise, let's assume they could.)

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  5. uhm...last I heard Israel is NOT the "west"-it's in the middle or near east. And neither is Russia. And anyone who chops up their family is clearly psychotic, and psychosis happens everywhere. But in India, mentally ill people are often taken to temples for "cures" by holy men. There's a lot of mental illness in India-it just gets swept under the rug.

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  6. Thanks Cyn! I saw a lot of things in the US like what you mention with the elderly in Switzerland. I had a neighbor that still worked in her garden every morning until she died at the age of 92! She was inspirational. My dad would never let me live with him and take care of him either. He's in his 60s and still goes out and mows the grass, works on things, takes frequent trips with his friends and more. My grandmother was the same. She didn't want to be stuck in her kids homes because they were too different. She became a celebrity chef in her retirement community and just loved making all the new friends and getting visitors more often then when she was at home. She was very happy and that's what really matters.

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  7. I don't agree. There's just as much violence in India as there is in the west. Not a week goes by that you don't hear about a baby being brutally beaten, raped, etc or a woman being burned alive. And those things happen either because they're female which they had no choice over or because they didn't keep someone happy. Those things can't be brushed off. And that's not the only violence that goes on in this country or has gone on. While the anger you saw was surely different than what you (or me) are used to, the basics of human nature are the same. That same murderer in Israel may have just been the most loving child the day before.

    Americans are desensitized toward quite a bit of violence but so are Indians. I can't even count how many Indians will swear that the baby killing, raping and bride burning happen but yet, somehow the news seems to have storied about those things daily. You've already stated you felt that murder was violent (and the one you mentioned was also very sick) so how is it different if an Isreali kills someone as opposed to an Indian killing someone? The reasoning behind murder doesn't matter, it's still violent and wrong.

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  8. Yes Cyn, they do. Humans are humans, regardless of which country they take pride in.

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  9. Sadly you're right Marsha. A lot gets swept under the rug here or dismissed as being different from things in the west. That's just not true though. India has it's fair share of violent individuals, it's just not always seen. Women are beaten then kept at home or made to cover up the bruises here just like every other country in the world. And it's not just women that are hurt here. Men get abused too and women can be just as violent.

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  10. Oh, and I don't want to fit in to India. I'm my own person and I don't want to be someone else. I will keep my own identity and if that means standing out from the crowd then I'm okay with that because at the end of the day, I don't have to question who I am.

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  11. @cyn
    Several reports? Could you please give me only 5 cases of indians killing their relatives for only giving mobile phones? Because I haven't read anything like this ever before.

    "Arrange marriages" are not what you think they are. Don't compare arrange marriages with non-arrange marriages. The two are completely different. It is not a love story nor a match made in heaven. They're like a business deals of life; very serious and can take very bitter turns.

    Not the same. Indians and americans do not think alike. Part of the problem is me for not being able to articulate my thoughts clearly in words. So i have to depend on examples to be clear. Indians and caucasians do not think alike. I'll give you an example below.

    Consider this line of thought: An uncle of mine lives in the US with his wife and their infant daughter. One night, a drunk man knocked on the door(second time). My uncle opened the door though still locked with the security chain. The drunk man was saying some insults about indians and put his hands through to remove the security chain which prompted uncle to attack his hand pushing him out closing the door and calling 911. The police took him away questioned him for hours and let him go. Next day, the same man but sobered came and apologized to the uncle. While narrating this tale to his american buddies, the strong consensus that was arrived at was that the uncle was at fault for not shooting the guy dead. The popular argument was that the guy will get drunk again and the uncle might not be home the next time, with his wife and infant daughter home alone. He should have taken steps necessary to kill the guy the next time so he won't come back a third time.

    For common indians like my uncle and me, this line of argument is very new but not unfamiliar in the west.

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  12. Kristy, Your parameter to find common grounds in two races through cases of domestic violence is very weird.

    Killings over petty issues is a serious matter and it speaks volumes about the development of those societies. Violent crimes arising from spousal arguments is common and understood but killing an entire family because of a car cannot be common or normally understood.

    You cannot equal-equal indian line of thinking with western line of thinking. You're comparing disorder with order.

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  13. I understand your line of thought. Mentally ill people should be put in a mental asylum. But since many indians don't send their progeny or siblings into a mental asylum, they are sweeping it under the rug.

    Did I get that correct?

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  14. nice point mate
    her frustration if not hate clearly reflect in her articles
    in so called developed and civilized societies its consider human nature but in india they called bad and evil
    but at least any student not firing bullets in schools and colleges  every 2 month just because he offended or annoyed or frustrated

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  15. which middle and which east and from where
    from India its west Asia
    just labeling a particular region without knowing geography is totally ignorant its middle east for Americas not for rest of the world
    last time i checked Russia was European country.

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  16. i think you are among those certain country's nationals who can't locate their country on map haha

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  17. accountability is good but suing just for anything is not good
    suing MacDonald because coffee was hot and winning it
    wtf isn't coffee meant to be hot?
    i salute that judge also for his super intelligent decision
    how rough concrete floors are on your bones    haha hilarious 
    people cry because they can't see animal suffering and dogs getting some pounding
    but same people are very happily kill animal and eat them its called double standards
     

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  18. My thinking was somewhat like that but not nearly as extreme. Mental asylums are rarely necessary. I was thinking more along the lines of people learning to deal with their issues such as depression and stress or disorders they have that don't require any type of hospitalization. Most people I've interacted with seem to be under the impression that depression can be cured by getting out of the house once in a while. I also have an Indian friend here who is a mental health counselor who's shared with me the difficulties of working with Amritsari's through their mental health issues and how they and their families fail to recognize them as issues.

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  19. Okay, so how do you explain the recent killings in Indian schools? Like this one:

    http://www.newsindia-times.com/NewsIndiaTimes/20120209/5403951267823329017.htm

    That was a petty issue as well. Regardless of how many people were killed or why, it's still violence and it does occur in India. Just as frequently as it does in other western countries. Cases like this are extreme, not an every day occurrence, no matter where you go.

    And you are aware that the most prolific serial killer in history came from India...Punjab actually. Here he is in case you've never heard of him.

    http://www.hellhorror.com/killers/serial_killer/67/Thug-Behram.html

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  20. Yes, in certain states in the US it is still legal to shoot someone IF you ask them to leave your property and they won't AND you feel as if your life is threatened. But this is very difficult to prove in court. I've seen cases just like this in my lifetime. The communities don't take it lightly if someone is killed on a doorstep like that and the repercussions are a lot stronger than you would imagine. I've only known one case where it was proven the person on the porch was there for malicious reasons and that person had plenty of police reports against him for stalking, etc. He came to a friends of mine's home and her boyfriend shot him. Because it wasn't her that did it and there was no proof he had anything against the boyfriend, the boyfriend went to jail for a long time. I'm not even sure he's out yet and that was about 20 years ago.

    These laws come historically from a time when the US was turbulent at best. Settlers had to do whatever necessary to protect their families and homes. That's why many states are overturning these laws, times are different now and some people exploit these old laws.

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  21. I've already posted one link for Broadway but since you obviously don't even know your own India (as I can tell from your posts, including the ones I don't publish) I will give you a few more.

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-17/delhi/31355106_1_wedding-venue-faridabad-bride-and-groom

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3350264.ece

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-02/kolkata/31274576_1_dowry-demands-malda-daily-labourer

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  22.  Oh a crazy in denial! Sweet wont argue with you, read the paper, google times of India and mirror, and for you information, it's not arranged marriage that is the issue, dowry is ILLEGAL in India, check the law, and to the best of my knowledge a family killing a bride for not bringing dowry or not enough is a hienous crime so how is it that it is less atroucious in your book than a guy killing his parents for a car.

    In the case of the US incident, forst I am NOT American, I'm Swiss, but I know many American, I'm pretty sure that the whole shooting allusion was not to be taken to face value, outraged people dramatise. And who said that American and Indian thinks alike? No one, the problem is that apparently Indians have a right to just say all the shit they want about the west, insult foreigners and call their whole cultrue bullshit, but they can't tolerate anybody even making a single polite observation about a flaw about their own country.
    Are you suggesting that people calling me racist names and telling me to go home because I have no business walking my dog in my own neighbourhood is fine, and that I should not say "there are some racist people in India"?
    And who are you or any that claims we in the west (never mind you put hundreds of countries under the same umbrella without knowing anything better) are mean people who have no familly values, no morals, no decency, no nothing?

    GIVE ME A BREAK

    last post on this crap, you can only take the donkey to the water...

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  23. No matter how you try to dismiss it, Murder is Murder in any country.

    Just as you think the boy killing his family over a cell phone is petty (and I agree with you on that), many people think killing a baby because it's a girl is petty. And killing your daughter because she married for love instead of someone of your choosing is petty. Those are cultural views but the underlying concept is the same. Murder is Murder.

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  24. I've never known a single American to think of India as the Middle East. It's actually even kind of odd to think of Indians as Asians even though they are. We recognize India as being set apart from both of these regions both in looks, actions and culture.

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  25. You're right, we call lawsuits like the McDonald's one frivolous -meaning stupid and ignorant. Even Americans recognize that and I remember that suit well. Most of the people I know made fun of that lawsuit even though the person won and they still do.

    So are you saying that it's okay to beat animals and watch them suffer as long as you eat them afterward?

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  26.  Oh and just for the record, just found worse than killing for a mobile phone, a teen killing not one but 3 yes THREE ladies over...hold your socks...50 rupees!!!!!!!!!!!!
    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120424/delhi.htm#1

    as I said these kind of mindless killings over material goods happen all the time in India too, there is at least a case in any given paper every week if not more often. Do you job, and read yourself.

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  27. i'm talking about Israel not india

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  28. Okay, then I misunderstood. I can't answer for America on that because the people I know don't have too many discussion on Israel other than in religious terms. Those are not political and have nothing to do with current events there, they're all in relation to Christian history. In that context I've never heard it be mentioned as a Middle East country but considering what we talk about, that's not surprising.

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  29. its story and stories modified on every mouth
    and he was robber not school student robber exist everywhere may be this story is true
    but how about ethnic cleansing and genocide of millions of native americans
    and making a law indian removal act to kill true owners of so called land of freedom and opportunity  

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  30. I don't dismiss any of that. Whether it's law or not, if it's wrong, it's wrong. My whole point is that the things Indians swear only happen in the west, do happen in India too. No matter how you want to justify it, Murder is Murder. It happens everywhere and no reason is good enough to justify it.

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  31. i'm saying why this double standard 
    you people love pets and seems to care for them and don't care about animals in your plate 

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  32. Hehhhe...to this both crazy-honourable-doutfull-lil over confidence-lil hate-lil racist-respectfull-sincere but nt serious-lil ignorante-lil error in brain-thoughtfull ladies(cyn-kristy)...as an Indian we respect ur thoughts & concern over India...we respect critisism..as its part of our & worlds largest democratic country(INDIA).......C we have been ruled by the west for more then 200yrs...thus from our A-x-y generations we have given a mentality of not being suppressed-tortured anymore by the west......its not about U & ME...the difference lies between the 112billion people of this country....where rich-poor & poor-rich values in a great way...so to bringing them in a chain will take a long-long-long years....yes WE NEED TIME TO KEEP THE PACE WITH WEST....we were nt westerns but yes we do really dream of getting there sometime...to c ur world-culture...truth is that we were bustard-dirty indians for u..(as u call us)...but again we respect u...cause we believe in peace...we learned & learning till now from independence..how to be accepted by you though we have proved ourself....our countries jst only 3-4 states is compared to ur country...so yes ur country with very low population than India is very small for us..thus a govt. Can easily tie them in a knot...but in case of India worlds all religions..caste lives here & they..have their own leaders so pleaze dont think it is an easy task for our govt...India has given the world many persolaties..& will continue in future too...so when u r in India...& if u think change is needed then u should help rather than snirearing ur nose on us.....IF U WANT CHANGE THEN BE THE CHANGE youRSELF...& pls we dont want to b like u..we want to build-change our culture in our own way....our culture is different then u...we want to exercise it in our own way....& yes IF U POINT UR ONE FINGEr AT OTHERS THEN U MUST LOOK AT UR other 3 FINGERS WHICH ARE POINTING AT U....which means SHIT happens everywhere....not only in India...it happens less in ur country cause only 1/4 population lives there(USA) regard to Indian population...we r developing & u r developed(as u claim)...heh..:-) u only started the difference...!

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  33. @broadway - An anthropological mini-lesson for you: (most) Indians ARE caucasians! with darker skin than European/middle eastern caucasians. There are only 3 races in the world - Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Africoid, with the Aborigines of Australia being their own group because they have been isolated for so long. And, I'm sure the "Indians" who come from such states as Mizoram, Darjeeling, Nagaland, and Assam would not appreciate being lumped into your all-purpose Indian classifcation.

    As for your uncle in the US, what kind of neighborhood does he live in?! it sounds very ghetto...just saying.

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  34. My dear: part of Russia is in Europe and part is in Asia, but perhaps you've never looked at a map, except for a map of Bharat. Russia is definitely not the "West". When people refer to the West, it means the western hemisphere, which technically is North and South America and the western part of Europe. New Zealand and Australia can be considered "western" in terms of culture but not geographically. Israel is the middle east, or near east, and it is part of the continent of Asia. It is most definitely not the "west". You must be a graduate of a CBSE curriculum school, or perhaps your daddy bribed someone to give you full marks on your Class XII board exams; quite obviously there are lacunae in your educational background.

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  35. The expression "to sweep something under the rug" means to be in denial; to not admit to something, to try to cover it up or pretend it doesn't exist. And besides, there is basically no care available here in India for mentally ill people, so even if family members wanted to send away their relatives, they would not be able to. But, I did see a mentally ill and disabled teenage boy in Rajasthan chained to a concrete wall and left alone in filth--I suppose that's so much better, right?

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  36. Kristy, the suicide rate in India is quite high. I know this from the line of work I'm involved in, and through Indian friends and colleagues. However, the "party line" is that all Indians are so happy, nobody suffers depression, and suicides are just "accidents".  More sweeping under the rug

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  37. I can't answer that either. I'm not a pet lover lol. I don't understand the need to take a pet to the salon and get it's nails painted and such as that either.

    I can answer you on meat. America was not a fertile country when it was settled. Almost all of the settlers that came to the US died from starvation and diseases they weren't prepared for. They were taught to hunt and kill animals by the Native Americans. They were also taught to grow vegetables but that took longer. So meat was essential to their survival. The tradition continued as part of our history. And we are not alone. Indians eat their fair share of meat as well. So do countless others in countries across the world.

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  38. OMG

    Blood is running on this blog. As if kristy does not have enough of tensions she now has to deal with vandals over the internet, self-obsessed indians who have to do their chest thumping everywhere.

    Avoided jumping onto this inferno for many days, but as a fellow reader, this is getting overboard buddy. 

    In reply to your above short but baseless comment, Just for the record, can you please classify pets? I mean lets check whether or not you have got out of your parent's house and really traveled India. If you are done with your teeny-weeny brain let me enlighten you about what you call pets and what you call animals. And it will consist mostly of India so be ready to bear the brunt.

    Dogs - Mostly known to be domestic pets. Cuddly. Just go 300-400 kms into the east and they are eaten just as we northerners eat chicken. States like Nagaland, Manipur, Odisha etc. HEll they dont even spare the balls. That is a part of their staple diet. It stretches further into all of south asia. So, there goes your misconception out of the window.

    Pigs - Slaughtered almost everywhere in India but hated by the muslim communities. These are also kept as pets by many farmhouse owners who use them as filth cleaning pets. I mean pets and not animals. 

    Cows - Although, regarded as hindu diety or the maa, matre, Mother, I see millions of these "ANIMALS" stranded on the streets and fending for themselves. These "ANIMALS" cause accidents, decay off the roadside etc. And I can tell you that there meat is served under the guise of beef in many posh restaurants. And many disillusioned people like you think these are homely pets.

    Snakes - Found in almost entire India most of these are not poisonous. As such, they can be great pets and people do keep them. Just like many other people who keep them to fill up their dinner plates. The poisonous ones are used to extract poison and used in rave parties :) not joking guys :)

    Chicken - Let me say first, YUMMY. It is no endangered species and are not going to extinct soon. I will not let them :)  Where is the double standard in eating something that is bred for the sole purpose of eating away.

    I wont even go into the other countries like south-east asia, Middle east as I believe what you will read will blow your home-grown concepts about pets and american double standards. I just told you about India and should be enough to understand your delusional double standards.

    What are you calling double standards? I dont have to discuss endangered species with a brain like you. How can you call people who eat chicken as having double standards while people like salman Khan who kill blackbucks  (endangered species) as heroes. All they have to do is start a good organization 'Being Human' and cover up his tracks. 

    Dude, you need to clearly mention the words in your comments. Work on your English as most of your comments are misunderstood. Or are you doing it knowingly to show you are Indian.

    I didn;t wanted to jump into this but you (and some other Indians) really need another Indian to open your eyes. Know our country first to comment on these foreigners who are here to live. Present a good picture if you can;t hide the flaws. 

    Waiting for your reply. Let's get this started.

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  39. first of all i never called israel west i called it west asiaread comments first before replying  pity on your ignoranceisrael is middle east for Americas you foolits part of western Asia for your dear knowledge middle east is just popular term for people of india its western asia technically the word middle east shouldn't be use by rest of world except Americansif you call Israel middle east than what you call japan korea macau hongkong china and mongolia lol.. mind your language don't make personal remarks if you have so much itching of knowledge lets have test we'll find out who possess more 

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  40. Americans are more likely to use an ethnic classifier, such as African, Chinese or Vietnamese, when referring to non-white Americans.
    for us every Indian is Indian despite of biological variations if northeast Indian called Indian not Mongolian-Indian or Nepalese-Indian or Chinese-Indian.
    you forgot about Australoids
    and its not Africoid its negroid 

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  41. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/10-million-Indians-wish-to-migrate-to-US-Gallup-poll/articleshow/12866251.cms     

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  42. o really 
    i never mentioned Americans having double standards it include all those people sought after animal cruelty and end up eating meat

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  43. I just invented more for racists like 5w-haul. Let me do the honors:

    Indianoids
    Pakistanoids
    Americanoids
    Swissanoids
    Europeanoids
    Englandnoids
    Chinesenoids
    Asianoids

    Dude, these classifications mentioned by Marsha are for scientific purposes and are not meant for racist agendas. Some people will no matter use them. 

    Somethings you are proud of were no longer there almost 50-60 years ago. What you proudly refer to as India today was not the India my grandparents knew. Politicians played there game and there house in pakistan was all of a sudden not theirs. Suddenly, It was foreign land. Migration killed many of our relatives and known families. The carnage was horrible. And the next generation accepted the India as it is today. Ask this old generation, what does a boundary signify? They wont argue as you do on this blog everywhere. Rather, they would tell you to grow as a person and not be proud of these fake lines on maps. They are changed everyday!

    And still people like you respect boundaries created by politicians as their proud homeland. Higher ups change the geographical boundaries at their behest and delusional people like you are supposed to protect them with arms. And in your specific case, through hurting words.

    Home is where the heart is. The boundaries are and cultural differences you are talking about are not static. What was culture 50-60 years ago is no longer the norm. Culture is dynamic and not static. What these foreigners will teach their kids in India (and I dont imply bad values in any way) will be the knowledge and hence culture of that generation. The next one will learn new values and respect new geographical boundaries.

    Stop arguing about races and geographical superiority. 

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  44. Hehh...Kristy must be happy..as she had not got this much of comments b4.....:-)...congrats..

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  45. a better saying in India about donkeys:

    If you want to drown a donkey, just start pulling it towards yourself. It is foolish enough to pull back and get drowned itself.

    :)

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  46. MR.gill r u an Indian or a pakistani..?..jst quering...

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  47.  Cyn, there is no need to call me names. I know we have our cultural differences but I'm sure the swiss too wouldn't like being called names.

    All I asked you was to give me 5 reports about indian teens killing their relatives because they didn't buy them mobile phones. That's all I asked and you couldn't even do that. Instead, you call me crazy.

    I was very clear about domestic violence being logical in the concept of an arrange marriage. The confusion for you comes because you equate AM with love marriages. It's not a marriage. It's a deal to live together and procreate.

    I wasn't taking about nationalities(american swiss etc). I was talking about races and the inherited malaise that are unique to it.

    I have no interest in talking crap about americans or europeans. I'm indian. I don't talk crap. I speak my mind. And I don't sugar coat anything.

    The word "racism" is a loaded word used as a verbal attack. I prefer "generalization". Yes, indians generalize about other people.

    I'm very careful with words. If you read my comments, you will see that I always stop short of an adjective.

    I never said the caucasian race had "no morals"
    I never said the caucasian race had "no family values"
    I never said the caucasian race had "no decency"

    Those are not my words. Those are your words. All I did was give you a narrative. It was you who labeled the narratives with the necessary adjectives.

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  48. Indians are not caucasians. The indian race has been kept isolated on indian soil for so long that they have developed their own unique genetics. They might have been closer to caucasians in genetics during the evolution stage but they eventually branched out and developed their own genetics.

    My own mother is half-caucasian with fair skin and green eyes. I know marathi people in our area who look like my mother but they are not the same. They're different race. One is a hybrid and the other is an indian.

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  49.  Cyn, do you realize that the godra train burning incident happened because some guy didn't pay 5 rupees for a chai?

    I've already mentioned my difficulty in putting my thoughts in words because I'm not a natural english speaker. I'm trying to point out a line of thoughts common between different races. Not isolated incidents.

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  50. mudslinging has started  :)

    Cyn, notice my donkey proverb. It's working :) :) 

    They jump themselves.

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  51. Which indian soil are you talking about Broadway.

    The indian soil which is now pakistani. Just 65 years ago this ISOLATED soil was Indian as well. 

    And Before that in times o f Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the soil of Afghanistan was also Indian. 

    How's that about your INDIAN PURE GENES and Isoaltion theory.

    Cyn, is right in calling you names :) you totally deserve it.

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  52. Hey Gill......you didnt answered Nands..are you pakistani

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  53. 5w
    Um, let's see. You replied directly to me and used the terms "you people" and "double standard." So were we to assume that you didn't mean my nationality? I don't think so. You implied Americans even if you won't admit it now.

    And thanks Gill!

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  54. I hear a lot of that too but I don't see it. People here have very real problems they just don't always deal with them.

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  55. Thanks Tracy, that's a good article!

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  56.  Interesting how you feel you don't need to provide links for your allegations, but we do.
    Beside Indians ARE caucasians for the majority, and a scientific basis there are 4 races: caucasian, mongoloids, negroids and australoids, it's bone structures and facial features, not skin colour that determine the race, there are medeteranean people that are darker than lighter Indians...
    And are you saying that in an arranged marriage it's ok to be violent and kill simply because it is seen as business contract...spare me the shit, murder is murder...and ironically most hindu will stick to a vegetarian diet in the spirit of non violence and non killing not to accumulate more karma, but then it's ok to kill you wife because of a dowry matter, or kill a 20 weeks female foetus simply because she is a girl, or kill a baby girl if you didn't get the money to pay the bribe in a shady clinic to determine the gender?

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  57. Oh yeah :) I've been living in India for 8.5 years now, the same old pattern of justifying the most heinous crimes as normal and less evil than in the west simply because it's India and India is be defualt the best ever int he world and history is a common pattern. 

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  58. What does that even prove?

    I can give you a list of dictators who committed mass carnage yet they got residence in europe and america when their country was over-run by rebel forces.

    Banking secrecy in some europen nations has allowed some of the most corrupt people in the world to park their money inside those banks. The worlds corrupt choose to have an account in european banks.

    So really, what does it even mean?

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  59. Indians are people who live east of the indus and south of the himalayas.

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  60. do you even understand what has the purpose of mentioning Australoid and Negroids
     i did mentioned them for scientific purpose because she forget forget writing about Australoid and write afroids instead of negroid
    and by the way they are anthropological terms not scientific h. sapiens doesn't have a subspecies
    difference between humans is called biological variations   
    neither i used those terms for racial purpose nor i am  arguing about races and geographical superiority
    please read carefully before commenting 

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  61.  Cyn, I'm not talking about isolated incidents. I'm taking about human psyche.

    Most people do not understand races.  Many tend to look at the similarities and remark, “Race A are just like Race B”. That may appear true at face value but it is important to understand that the race A does not feel like race B and do not like to say “our race is just like your race”. And in the developing years, different races have developed certain unique and recognizable defining features. While these features have been noted time and again by innumerable people in a large number of books, newspaper reports and magazines, no effort been made to collect this information and "put it all together" between the covers of a single book. Not surprisingly, any book that tries to study the psyche of a race in an explicit language will be termed "racist" or "hate literature".

    For eg: Cousin marriage, honour killings, repression of women etc. are social mechanisms common between desert barbarians and mountain barbarians to keep scarce wealth within the clan. Lawrence of arabia describes the caucasian race's fondess for the desert. Many indians still do not understand why foreign travelers would want to visit places like rajashtan or gujarat. The author who translated the kamasutra into the english language describes a race's(between mediterranean - persia) fondness for young boys as objects of desire(see Bacha bazi in wiki).

    Wrt arrange marriage I'm not saying its okay. I'm saying that extreme domestic violence in arranged marriages is not surprising.

    India was a land of monarchy(kings and queens) where boys were preferred for the continuation of the family lineage. India was also a land where endless wars were(and still, china-pak) fought where boys were(and are) viewed as security preference. Hindu law of karma didn't stop indians for sending men into the battlefield throughout the middle ages then how can you be surprised when you learn about female infanticide? The shift(from patriarchy) is expected to happen gradually, not suddenly with newspaper or UN statistic report type protests.

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  62. Marsha,  Yes, Indians are in denial and are refusing to acknowledge the
    existence of mental people. This denial had caused them from sending
    their friends and family into a mental asylum.



    And since indians refuse that mental people do not exist, qualified mental asylums and qualified staff do not exist in india.



    Yes, mental people around india are chained to a concrete wall and left alone in filth.

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  63. dude don't make fool of yourself by comment like this
     
    In the early twentieth century the term race was often used, in its taxonomic sense, to denote genetically diverse human populations whose members possessed similar phenotypes.
    it still used within forensic anthropology (when analyzing skeletal remains),biomedical research, and race-based medicine.
    Among humans, race has no taxonomic significance; all living humans belong to the same hominid subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens. When people define and put about a particular conception of race, they create a social reality through which social categorization is achieved. In this sense, races are social constructs.
    so humans possess biological and genetic variations but they are not certainly different race
    people categorize humans by race are just ignorant and grossly informed

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  64. by you people i meant those who can't see animals suffering because you mentioned ''brutally beaten dog'' in your blog 

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  65. whats new in that peoples wants to move there because population and competition is low, and the purpose of European settlers was the same.these peoples have equal right to settle there as Europeans had.
    the usa is neither a country of European settlers nor these people,
    its country of their natives which Europeans occupied illegally and cleaned up native population.

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  66. you starts commenting on other's comment without bother reading properly.first i don't know what is the truth both parties saying they are right police and law will take necessary steps neither i am bureaucrat and administrative nor ambassador of India i presented my thought on this blog's accountability issue not law enforcement.i am not fighting war here i do presents my thoughts so did everyone hereand on coffee issue anyone in the world find it mere stupid and its result of over accountability, intolerance and greed and you can't deny that.india does has its share of problems, every country does. but there is no point of comparing two countries and crying about one's problem because they are different.if india are dirty third world country,other countries aren't washed in milk either.and don't make personal remarks that same ''shame'' on you if you are indian. i assume you are not indian but if you are indian then you are khalistani hypocrite who still possess pain of division in his heart and want separate country.what you want to prove here by saying lets start it. why don't you create different blog for your fighting purpose instead of fighting on someones blog.

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  67. I just don't know why people are calling indians as dark caucasians? They are not caucasians. The scientific community are agreed that indians have lived in isolation for so long that they have developed their own unique genetics.

    Check out this rosenberg study of world human genetics:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_clustering

    This image shows indians differentiating from other races in large amount of "red".
    http://bp2.blogger.com/_Ish7688voT0/RdQ8Idu3UfI/AAAAAAAAABM/Hm8o09AUKPU/s1600-h/10.1371_journal.pgen.0020215.g002-L.jpg

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  68. historically Indian women enjoyed more rights in Indian civilization from thousands of years than their barbarian European and Arabian counterparts. women of Egypt and Persia also enjoyed some rights in pre-Islamic era but at lesser extent.
    women's rights started decreasing in Muslim rule and reached its lowest level because of Islamic ideology.they are rising but have long way to catch up other countries.and it'll take some time.women's rights were granted in late 18th and 19 century in Europeans and other related countries.

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  69.  You seem to misunderstand the term race and ethinicity, race are the 4 I mentioned earlier: Negroids, caucasian, mogoloids and Australoids, Latinos and Indians are ethnic sub group of the caucasian race.

    You mention once that people of the Indus have been an isolated race and maintained purity. Indians derive from inhabitant of the vally of Indus, that runs through modern pakistan, India, and Tibet, it is a GEOGRAPHIC term, which in today's worl would refer as a nation, Indian is not a race but a nationality applying to people originary from said location, Indians today are majoritary caucasian with a percentage of Mongoloids from the North East.
    The Indus people have never been isolated, the Indus valley has been at the crossroad of trade routes for milleniums, Alexander the Great made it that far in 334 BC, Gechis Khan's empire stretched in some remote parts of what is Kashmir, the trade routes notably the silk road brought the Chinese there too, and they went as far as South India, leaving an iconic fish net system still used today in Cochin.
    The Sanskrit and Latin language bear many similarities int heir grammar and roots of words, suggesting that cultural exchanges happened between the roman empire and the people of the Indus.

    On the infanticide, yet again you seem to lessen the atrocity of it, ditto with domestic violence in arranged marriage, they are not expectable, should never be tolerated and the Indian penal code condemn them.
    How come you try to lessen these crimes and point at the western world crime you have been exposed. If I follow your logic there could be a thing that justify the russian killing you mentionned as normal because that's things traditionally are in russia (whchih by the way I have no idea about because I never been there) but wouldn't that be an assumption, you outsider pronouned a crime commited by "western people, disgusting" and you are right it is disgusting, but when we point out the same about practices that occur in today's India are condemned by the lawy, you try to soften them as part of som kind of cultural heritage.

    The guy who translated the Kamasutra is from another era when races where a much differnt thing not at all based on scientific facts. And Lawrence of Arabia or shall I say Thomas Edward Lawrence as it was his real name was a British Army officer, which I assume completely fills your description of a caucasian, Born in the colonial time, where again race meant a much different thing, it wasn't based on bone structure back then but skin colours, the term ethnicity was not in use...science has evolved there.

    Here is a good overview of Caucasian as a race in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

    The physical traits of Caucasoid crania are still recognised as distinct (in contrast to Mongoloid and Negroid
    races) within modern forensic anthropology. A Caucasoid skull is
    identified, with an accuracy of up to 95%, by the following features:[20][21][22][23][24]

    Little or no prognathism exhibited—an orthognathic profile, with minimal protrusion of the lower face.Retreating zygomatic bones (cheekbones), making the face look more "pointed".Narrow nasal aperture, with a tear-shaped nasal cavity.

    Other physical characteristics of Caucasoids include hair texture that varies from straight to curly,[3] with wavy (cymotrichous) hair most typical on average according to Coon (1962), in contrast to the Negroid and Mongoloid races. Individual hairs are also rarely as sparsely distributed and coarse as found in Mongoloids.[3]

    Skin color amongst Caucasoids ranges greatly from pale, reddish-white to dark brown tones.[3]That my dear is today's caucasian for you, or shall I say caucasoid. Read the whole article it will give you the history of the term from the first moment it was coined in 1785.

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  70. Cyn, there are more than just those 4 races: bp2.blogger.com/_Ish7688voT0/RdQ8Idu3UfI/AAAAAAAAABM/Hm8o09AUKPU/s1600-h/10.1371_journal.pgen.0020215.g002-L.jpg

    Indians appear in wide red because like I said, they have been isolated for a very very long time. "Indian" is not only a nationality but also a "race".

     

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  71. Cyn, indian genetics developed way before islam, axelander or the trade routes ever existed. It was much later that some parts of northern india(punjab and sindh mostly) were invaded by the europeans and later by the muslims. The captured population recieved some caucacian genes. Gengis khans progeny can still be traced by ladakh and tibet.

    R burton - The guy who translated the kamasutra may have written about his journeys in the 1800s but why do little boys still exist in the described region still provide sexual services to the men? If it as based on opinion as you say. Rather it is based on empirical evidence. There is a debate going on within the circles of scholarship that this is genetic(perhaps from the paternal side) and that it might have been carried forward to regions outside the affected area during the middle ages where invasions and mass rapes were common.

    I agree that a murder is a murder. There's a population that has adapted to "order" and there's a population that has adapted to "inorder". What happens if you take an orderly population and put in an inorderly environment and vice versa? I remember the 2006 rains in mumbai. The teenagers were playing cricket in four feet of water. It was one the best moments of their lives.

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  72. Yet again you do not grasp the difference between ethnicity and race as defined in Anthropology, and no India has never been Isolated, they have been at the center of trade routes since the begining of time.

    Genetics, the gene pool is the same for all human kind, certain genes are prevalent in certain civilisation (not race) this what define an ethnic group, which was also called sub-race at one point, people of the Indus valley were mostly from a cacasoid etnicity that was once called a subrace in colonial time. In modern antropology race is not defined as much by genetics as it is by skull bone strcture, take a skull from a person from India and one from Europe and they will both fit caucasoid.
    Behaviours are not defined by genetics alone, the socio-cultural aspect accounts for most of it.
    My father was a jail officer before he retired, he saw his fair share of convicts, and no their nationality and race and ethnicity have very liitle to tell, drug dealers and junkies came in all shapes size and colours, the only common denominator they had was coming from a poor socio economical background, the drug cartel is in control and deal with certain cultural groups more than other because they have more social ties among these communities. Rapists and pedophiles were actually for a good percentage physcologically unstable people with a need to control, the phscological aspect might be genetic, but for a psycological chain of event to get triggered you need a catalist, for these deranged pscho that probably came from a lack of control in their life, probably due to a socio economical situation, they had a State psychiatrist attached to the State jail, he councelled inmates but also gave seminar to the officers as what to expect from psychotics in their wards and how to handle them for everybody's safety.
    My dad told us stories from his work everyday at meal time. We also travelled a lot as kids because my parents wanted to expose us to the wrld and let us developp a broad mind. My dad still does travel, he has been at sea on his sailboat touring the world since his retirement in 2007 Right now he is in New Zealand, but traveled an entire year in the carrabean, 4 months just on the US East coast, a month or two in central America a whole year in the polynesian and pacific Islands before being where he is now, and he isn't even half done touring, in each place, he stayes in harbour, anchor in bays, spend times with locals, gets invited to stay with locals, learns about their culture, folks tales, history, festivals, food habits. That only reinforce that no crime is not tied to genes and race, it exist everywhere, and funny fact it's everywhere tied to socio economic circumstances, the segement of the population that is the least cared for in each of these countries he visited are the one that are the most violent and prone to turn criminals. Unity in a community and respect is what ensure the highest degree of peace, that or a supremly extremist governement. Cuba being an example, I have a Swiss friend living there who told me tales my dad witnessed while staying there for 3 weeks.
    So no the "western race" whatever that means really isn't worse than any other, and no you can't blame things on race, and no the West is not all one same thing. Beside if you want to nit pick there are all race living in the west anyway.

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  73.  Again they aren't race, they are ethnicity, and No India has never been isolated.

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  74. I bow down in front of this donkey.

    for your info, I am an Indian and a Punjabi Jatt. And Yes, partition was a pain and you can never feel it since it didn't happened with your fathers. But I am no pro-khalistani

     Really there is no point arguing with you brainless pro-indian.

    Bowing in shame as you are an Indian.

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  75. you need Punjabi soldiers to fight your wars and suddenly on these blogs and meaningful discussions, we Punjabi become idiots who khalistan. WE suddenly are treated not as indians but foreigners. Just check how many punjabi soldiers are there in armed forces and  how many laid there lives in freedom struggle. 

    how considerate it that.  

    I did not wanted to start Indian  race war. Don't force me since I am genuinely not interested.

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  76. I really wish to see your face when India loses parts of its territory to Pakistan and China. It will change your so called Indian geography again. Your narrow mind will resort to whatever politicians tell you - this is our new india :)

    I am not saying it should. But the way current developments are going, this is a huge possibility. Would blow your India Map out of proportions.

    And since you questioned my knowledge, as well as patriotism, I must tell you I cleared the combined defense services Exam conducted by the UPSC twice and on the 30th of April I am called to attend the interview phase at the Services SElection Board Allahabad. Can procide you roll number as well scan of the call letter if you think I am lying.

    Had enough??

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  77. my forefathers given their life for this country so i can be pro-indian and proud to be one.

    because of imperialistic minded people like you india were slave for 1000 years.

    ''I really wish to see your face when India loses parts of its territory to Pakistan and China. It will change your so called Indian geography again'' - traitor khalistani's intention and desire finally revealed hurrey!!!!

    cleared cds twice - hehehe trolll

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  78. well i had enough 
    i have no further intention to discuss things with traitor khalistani and waste my priceless time hearing bakwas of fifth columnist

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  79. Congratulations and Good luck! May God be with you during your interview.

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  80. Hey  5w-HAul

    I am no pro khalistani and we don't want to split India either. I love my country more that ignorant people like you can ever do.

    For Ignorant people like you all are traitors.

    Just like you labeled every punjabi as khalistani, you will say people of telangana might also be traitors.
    people of kashmir might also be traitors.
    people of eastern states might also be traitors.
    Naxals might also be traitors.
    Maharashtrians are also traitors for beating up biharis

    You will just type anything into comments without any real brain behind these comments.

    AGAIN - I AM NOT A PRO-KHALISTANI

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